00:08
Welcome to the world. Thanks for joining us here. I am John McNertney at Green Ocean Global Advisors and lovely to see you. Thank you for joining us tonight. So we're gonna read some disclosures here and then we're gonna get started. The disclosures I'm told cover us for all kinds of things. We are gonna be providing information that is pertaining to tax, investment, all kinds of money.
00:37
centric topics are going to be brought up today. But they are not deemed to be provided in a professional way. In other words, you're not hiring us as a professional. We don't have a contract in place. So we cannot be held responsible for whatever you choose to do with this information. We are going to be blessed today with some knowledge. We've got Zeev Fisher in our webinar today. Say hi, Zeev.
01:07
Hi. He's great. I guarantee you. He's a lawyer. Yeah, that sounded really convincing. But he is. He is actually a very detailed subject matter expert on Portuguese taxes. And as we can see here in his profile, he's been a lawyer in the UK for a number of years and, of course, Portuguese attorney, as well as the Israeli courts. He is a partner at Fresh.
01:38
He's got 20 years of cross-border legal experience with a focus on different intellectual property matters before he started to focus on tax here in recent years. And he's an active angel investor and mentor at Startup Accelerators in Cambridge and in Lisbon. I can vouch for that. What's been interesting is his interest and involvement in the local tech scene here. So I have been really impressed to find that he has not just been doing tax work, but making his way around town.
02:06
I think trying to sort of bolster the very sort of nascent tech scene going on in Lisbon today. And that's about it. I'm sorry, Zeev, to be doing all the talking so far. too much. Yeah, way too much. Do you want to add anything? Just the guy who lives in Lisbon. He's super humble. When we first met, fun story. We met at the coffee shop near my house and his whole story consisted of,
02:35
I was gonna stop working because I really, really love just living in Portugal, but they dragged me back into it. So I guess I'm gonna do some more work. And my wife wants to have a house in London, so I've got to make money. True fact. Still true, yeah. Still all true, right? I started this company in 2022. I previously worked in San Francisco, California for Merrill Lynch back before it got bought by Bank of America.
03:04
I have about now 18 years of experience, sadly, gray hairs and all. I originally got a Bachelor's of Science in Psychology at the University of Iowa, and that's where I'm from actually. I'm from the Bay Area slash Iowa. You can see me later if you really care to know more. I'm currently living in Lisbon, Portugal as well. That's how I met Zeev here, and I lived in the Bay Area.
03:29
And that's where I met this next ravishing beauty, Ryan Aarons, who lives in the Bay Area still. He is our trading desk here at Green Ocean Global, which means he does all of the execution on trades for investments we control. He's got about 14 years of experience himself. He studied at San Francisco State University and he currently, he holds a designation in crypto, which I always have to chuckle at because I can't believe it's a real thing.
03:55
But it very much is, of course, in this day and age. And he loves doing all kinds of outdoor sports as well. Anything I missed there, Ryan? No, excited to be here. Yeah, super exciting. Let's talk about taxes. Speaking of which. So here's the quick outline. We are going to just quickly give you a very, very 20,000 foot view of the two tax systems, Portugal and the United States.
04:24
And then we're going to talk about some recent policy changes and the specific impact that they are going to have. We're going to talk about some basic tax planning strategies for expatriates, well as to avoid double taxation, talk about social security and how that affects your income tax in both countries, as well as some actions to take and some key deadlines. Then we'll talk a little bit about FBAR and FATCA. And my favorite part is really the Q &A.
04:54
So how we're gonna do this, Zeev, is I'm gonna do a quick intro, then I'm gonna kick it over and talk about Portugal. But like, if you have anything you wanna say at any moment, please just butt in. This is not intended to be just a, you know, John talking about everything in sight thing. All right, let's go.
05:17
So when you think about the two tax systems, there are a few notable differences as well as similarities, I think, between them. The first being that the US, famously, is a citizenship-based taxation system. What does that mean? Well, that means that you are taxed on the basis if you're being a citizen. So presumably, you're not going to give up your passport and expatriate. You're going to be a citizen wherever you go in the world.
05:47
Portugal, on the other hand, is a residence-based taxation system. And so the opposite is the case, is you are taxed when you're here. Just like every other European nation, in fact, if you move from Portugal to Spain and you cease being a tax resident of Portugal, I mean, you do have to tell them that you're moving, then you're going to not be subject to taxation. In the U.S., you get a foreign earned income exclusion on $126,000.
06:17
of foreign earned income and US citizens have to file that annual tax return as I've said, no matter where they go. And the Portuguese are also subject to worldwide taxation. So that's the same, but the income rates, the taxation rates, they're a little bit different. And if you're not a resident of Portugal, if you move away, then you're only going to be taxed on your Portuguese source income.
06:46
and it's going to be taxed at flat rate of 25%.
06:52
In the US, if you don't know this, then pay attention, because this is important to know. There's basically two types of income, two types of capital gains income that you're going to be taxed on. And that is the short-term capital gains and long-term capital gains. And so you're probably aware of this, but short-term capital gains, these are all taxed at ordinary income rates. So they just, they flow into your tax bracket along with your earned income.
07:20
Long-term capital gains are far lower. If you're not making very much money, you're actually paying 0 % of long-term capital gains. so long-term is anything that's held for more than a year. That's physical assets like your home or an investment property, as well as stocks, bonds, including mutual funds and index funds, all of these types of paper assets. They're going to be subject to 0, 15 or 20 % tax rates, depending on how long you've held them.
07:51
And just for fun, why don't you kind of give us the other side of things you have.
08:01
Sorry. Yeah. So yeah, in Portugal, also short-term and long-term capital gains, relatively a new thing. Under a year, the gains are just added to your no ordinary income and taxed at the typical marginal progressive rates. More than a year, you can choose whether you want the capital gains taxed in the progressive rates or
08:29
apply a flat 28 % rate to the gains. We will touch on that a little bit later. Most of this is completely irrelevant to most people. Up until now, most people that came were under NHR that gave an exemption to foreign source capital gains that have the right of where there's the right of taxation to the other country, which as you've just said, the US has. It's very unique. It's by the way, not just
08:58
compared to Europe, it's compared to everywhere. The citizenship-based taxation is... Singapore is the only other country... Eritrea is the only country. Yeah, Singapore doesn't do that. And Eritrea doesn't have the same significance to global trade as the US yet anyway. It may become one day the 75th state or something, but until then... So yeah, it's...
09:28
This has been irrelevant to most people. Now it's relevant to some because there's no longer an automatic entitlement to tax benefits. But as we'll see, it's still relevant to a lot more people than people tend to think. yeah, short term, long term as well, much, much, much higher rates.
09:49
Yeah, much higher rates. We're going to get to the rates actually in a second. And then it's 50 % on real estate, right? I was really surprised when I first got here. 15 % of the gain is considered a taxable gain. Do you know what the reason behind that is? I hate to put you on the spot, but I've never understood that. What is the thinking behind 50 % of your capital gain from the sale of the real estates? Did they just kind of... I don't know what the reason is.
10:18
I do know that some time ago there was a hundred percent applied to foreigners as opposed to Portuguese and that's been found to be illegal. there's actually a lot of people, mainly people who sold homes in 2021 and 2022 that overpaid and may have a repaid waiting if they file.
10:45
a claim before the end of the limitation period. So that's an interesting anecdote. But why is it 50 % for Portuguese people? I'm not a real estate lawyer. don't know. Maybe Daniel, my head of real estate department knows, but he's just left. So I can't ask him. Daniel left. He was so good. All right. Well, it just left for today. It'll be here tomorrow. OK. OK. Well, yeah. So I thought that Daniel was gone. He's working on a couple of cases for some clients. I know. Sorry.
11:16
exemptions if it was sold as your primary residence and then reinvested then you you now somebody yesterday told me that there's an exemption on your primary residence if you sell it in the US and then reinvest it in the residence in Europe that's not true right no that's not true no okay cool that's like our 1031 exchange rule in the United States in the US it has to be it has to be an investment property like
11:44
You don't get that for your primary residence. It's interesting. But again, this was hypothetical until now for most people. Interesting. So the brackets, as Zev's just pointed out, are super, super generous in the United States. Maybe Zev's going to check me on this, but really, I just think of this as a reflection of the relative earning power of the individuals in the United States.
12:12
In San Francisco, right, where I lived up until recently, you had to make a couple hundred thousand dollars a year if you wanted to buy a house and grow in the United States. In Portugal, you're not making a couple of hundred thousand a year. So that's like one of the biggest differences between how the tax brackets think about how we live our lives. But then, of course, you know, Portugal being a socialist country is different in a number of other ways as well. But we have a progressive tax system.
12:40
Meaning as your income increases, your tax rates increase too. But never forget, you know, being in the 37 % tax bracket, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're experiencing a 37 % tax rate. Not at all. I often have this sort of conversation where somebody goes, well, I'm in the 24 % tax bracket. So, you know, how can I keep from getting into the 32? And they look at that 197 right there.
13:07
as if it's like death, they're getting to 32. like remember folks, that $198,000 that you're earning now, it's progressively only a tiny amount of that income is being exposed to that top tax bracket. You have a blended rate across your income. As we've also said, short-term and long-term cap gains, I already went over these rates, long-term and short-term capital gains work in a progressive way.
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as well.
13:40
Portugal's worse though, right? Right Zev? Yeah, a lot worse. I think the table pretty much speaks for itself. It's missing solidarity rates. So beyond 80k, another 2.5 % hits. Beyond 250k, another 5 % hits. So another 2.5 and 2.5. So it goes all the way to 53%. And that doesn't include social security. And how does social security work? you're working in Portugal, social security is on top of that.
14:10
It's on top of it. And how much is it? So if you're self-employed, it's 21%. But if you're self-employed and you're making up to 200,000 euros a year, then it's only 70 % of the 25 % is taxable. And if you're employed, it's 11%. But it's 23.75 % of the employer.
14:36
And if your employer is in a different country, the employer may want you to cover some of that. So it's a lot. So it's a lot. Underscore a lot. The first time I had to pay Social Security for an employee here, it blew my mind. That's few people are actually employed. You see it disperforming. Okay, maybe that's an overstatement, but you see a lot of people that
15:04
are working as contractors, but in a non-natural way and are not employed, but they're effectively employees. And the tax authorities are also cracking down on this. So if someone works in a single place and goes to the, I mean, if they have more than 50 % of their income is from one client, then there will be an
15:33
the business will be levied another 11 % social security bill on the entire salary of that person at the end of the year. And they've started enforcing it now and they're being pretty effective. they do pick it up. there are ways, it's part of, I think we'll talk about the importance of structuring things correctly, but if you want to have people working for you within Portugal,
15:58
there's a lot of tax to take into account and completely nontrivial how it should be structured. Yeah, was actually, fun story, I was actually taking a court over that Social Security. I totally just didn't think about it. I didn't think it would be a big deal. And it was, it is, and they enforced it and I paid it. It's a lot of money. So Portugal's taxation on foreign debt. Now, by the way, folks, I can see your questions. I promise you,
16:28
that they are worth asking because we're gonna go full on into the questions when we're done with our prepared remarks here, so don't worry. So dividends are gonna be taxed, of course. Portugal's taxation of foreign dividends and rental income are very different under NHR though than they are if you do not have the non-habitual residence. And before we continue, actually, I feel that it's fair to tell you what it is, the non-habitual residence.
16:57
designation because I have been running into people that don't know at all what it is. Right. And that's really interesting. I think Zev would probably agree. Before last year, everybody knew what NHR was. In fact, a lot of folks were hoping that that was like that was a driver for their coming here. So what is it? So NHR was a tax regime which was dropped. Was it two years ago now? It's two, right Zev, in November of 2023?
17:27
was declared that it's ending and then it was ending and then it wasn't ending and then it was ending again. Very Portuguese. The back and forth with this, but it gave you access to 10 % maximum taxation on foreign pensions. And then foreign dividends were taxed at zero. And you were also not subject to capital gains taxes.
17:55
on the sale of foreign assets, physical assets. So that was a big deal because you could move to Portugal and effectively the capital gains on the sale of a property in the United States totally exempted from taxation. Did I miss anything there Zev? Yeah, capital gains is an interesting one. The sale of foreign real estate is very clearly, sorry, I was just saying that someone.
18:24
So sale of foreign real estate is very clearly within the scope of the other country has the right. Okay, so let's take one step back. How does NHR work or how did NHR work? There are certain streams of income which are normally passive. They're not necessarily completely passive, but that's dividend interest, some types of royalties, most types of royalties, but also capital gains.
18:54
which were exempt if the other country had the right to tax them in the tax treaty between the two countries. That's how the law was phrased. So it didn't protect from effective taxation, it protected from possible taxation or potential taxation or risk of taxation. dividend interest and royalties are all taxable in almost every country.
19:21
based on the double taxation treaty. all the countries apply that tax, but they have the right. for Americans, people are taxed for these things. For some non-Americans, for example, rates are not taxed for interest or dividends coming out of the UK on the UK side, but the UK has the right to tax them and therefore there is an exemption on the Portuguese side.
19:50
Securities, so capital gains, so securities obviously pay dividends. That's clearly, that was clearly out of scope of tax in Portugal, but securities also, most of the way people build wealth, especially in the US is through capital gains on securities and that's John's business as well. And there's been a dispute on this between the tax authorities in Portugal who argued that the tax treaties gives
20:16
Portugal, an exclusive right to tax this and therefore there is no right to tax to the other side. And Portugal has the right to tax that and taxpayers coming from the US where there's a citizenship based taxation that said no, the US can and does tax us for this through the saving clause. And it doesn't matter that it doesn't appear in the capital gains clause on the treaty. It appears down in the
20:47
at the different place and that's enough because it gives the US the right of taxation. Long story short, someone went to court on this one and it's one of the few cases where the Portuguese authorities actually changed their policy. And in the last two years, they have not applied capital gains on securities only for Americans because only Americans have this unique situation where the US can tax them.
21:15
And this is actually maybe one of the very, very few and peculiar situations where the citizenship based taxation actually works in some people's favor because the tax in Portugal is higher. So anyone benefiting from the NHR now doesn't need to pay capital gains tax in Portugal. The funny thing is that so many people don't know about this and most of the accountants in Portugal
21:43
The vast majority of the accountants in Portugal don't know about this either. So when they file their tax people's tax returns, they don't state the citizenship because it never mattered. But if you don't state the citizenship, the authority applies tax. we have a really sad case. we filed a lot of, we did lots of refilings of people that paid capital gains tax. And then they came to us because they've heard that we have this magical way of filing the tax return the right way.
22:12
which is putting the, know, stating the citizenship as their accountant should have done in the first place. And all of them came back with a zero tax assessment, bar one, who filed, before it came to us, the accountants filed the tax return four times, doing it wrong every single time. And there is a very significant tax bill and the tax authorities just wouldn't have any more refilings. And in this case, we're going to arbitration.
22:42
which we will win. So he will get his tax rebate, but yeah. It will take a few more months. So if you guys are hearing this, this is like literally the reason that I turn to Zev so frequently. it's a silly reason, but it's important is by and large, professionals in Portugal, they do a lot of things the way that they have been historically done.
23:09
I mean, I have habits that I get into. And yet if you just hit go on your tax execution software, it's not gonna take into consideration your citizenship. It doesn't matter. And so it's been helpful to have a tax firm like these guys. I sound like this is terrible like an infomercial, but really like they look at stuff. They look at it and you really do have to be thoughtful if you're an expat about the way that you file your taxes here. I think that's...
23:37
That's basically the end of the story there, right Zev? That's the moral to the story. If you like, that's a nice moral. I do like, but what would you say better? I mean, really, that's it. Like you have to look at the way that you're filing and you've got to be intentional about taking your treaty position. Absolutely. I I think I've said quite a lot, but...
24:07
But expert taxes are, expert taxes, especially under NHR and also the new scheme. have, they're very, very particular. And we do, we file about, I think this year we'll file more than 500 expert tax returns. Yeah. Don't steal your own thunder. You're going to talk about a fece in just a minute here.
24:29
And so to answer David H's question, yes, we'll talk about NHR, non-NHR on all of these slides going forward because it is important. And here, for example, the standard tax rate dividends being received by Portuguese tax residents, that's probably you, if you already live in Portugal, taxed at 28%. So like Zev said, you can sue under the saving clause. By default, if you just hit go on your Modelo, what is it, Modelo 3?
24:57
Then yeah, you're going to pay 28%. There's an option for progressive rates. So under some circumstances, 28 % is more than 13. For example, you might actually choose to take your dividend income off of 28 and file it at progressive rates to get a lower lower tax rate. And then there are tax credits available for foreign taxes paid on dividends, and those are limited to the lesser foreign taxes pay.
25:25
Also, you want to use losses, need to choose the progressive rates. That's another thing for capital gains. That's another thing that the accountants, don't do. They don't take the losses right sometimes. And you only find out about that two or three years later when it becomes relevant. So then you're going to be doing a lot of back taxes, which is never, it's not more fun the second time around.
25:54
And so taxation of rental income, a lot of folks want to come to the country with rental property. This is especially the case if you're not sure you want to move to Portugal forever, right? And so as I do financial plans for people, they're like, well, I want to keep my house in Seattle, but and keep renting it because that's a great option. You're going to be taxed at a flat rate of 28 percent on that. And so you have to think about that. Although, once again, you can elect to take that income.
26:22
at progressive rates as well. Yeah, if you own personally, if you own through an LLC, it's a whole complexity. LLCs are an interesting animal. We're going to get to those in a second. Special rules for self-employed folks. Actually, this is pretty much your bag. Are we talking about green receipts here, Zev? What are some other considerations for self-employed expatriates? Yeah, this is green receipts. So this is being a freelancer.
26:52
issuing invoices. The simplest way to do that is by opening an Actividad in Portugal and then you issue receipts. has to be Portuguese compliance receipts, so you can't just file a tax return at the end of the year like you can do in the US. You can't work on a cash basis. It's not an option. You have to issue from Portugal and it's a global basis for everyone.
27:21
But there is a big benefit if you're under 200,000 euros, only 75 % of your income is taxable. But you can't use expenses. So you have to prove a little bit of that. But this is instead of deducting expenses. But in the first year, there is another 50 % reduction on top of that. So only 37.5 % of your income is taxable. Got it. So in the second year is 25%.
27:49
So the first couple of years, don't pay that much. Also, you don't pay Social Security in Portugal in the first year of issuing green receipts. Whether you should pay in the US or not is a debatable topic because on one hand, you're in the system in Portugal, you're subject to Social Security, but there is an exemption. On the other hand, you are not actually paying.
28:17
resolution for this was for Portugal to have issued a statement that you're subject to Social Security in Portugal, but they are not issuing the right form. yeah. then NHL. Most of our clients base Social Security on that here in the US.
28:36
Yeah, that makes sense. mean, I wouldn't consider it debatable whether you report it. You're still subject to citizenship based taxation in any event. but there is no but that's not why because there is a there's social security agreement totalization agreement. If you pay in Portugal, you don't need to pay in the US. But if you don't pay in Portugal, but should have paid in Portugal, it's it's you should if you had a certificate of coverage, you shouldn't have paid in the US. Right. Because Portugal doesn't issue a certificate of coverage. I'm saying it's debatable.
29:06
Well, but the Social Security that you're putting your money towards in Portugal, and you can go back to a webinar that I did on Social Security about a month ago, it's not that good. The Social Security that's available to you in the US is much higher generally, but you have to continue reporting in and paying your FICO taxes on your self-employed activity if you want to be eligible for that. So you're going to be putting up some zeros. for sure.
29:31
If you want to, yes. If you want to. And so that's a calculus that you should be doing. And then NHR. So NHR, I don't think you even said this, Zev, but somebody asked us to talk about this on every slide. And I think it's worth pointing out 20 % max on high value added activities. That was the big deal with NHR. For income tax, yeah. Not social security. Right. On income tax. Yeah. This is for income sourced in Portugal. Yeah.
30:00
Corporate taxation is 20 % on taxable profits for your corporation and it's less than Medida. How does this work exactly? How do you become a corporation and become subject to the standard IRC rate? Yeah, so if you have your HQ in Madera, you can have your company headquartered in Madera and then you pay the Madera rates.
30:27
If you're inspected at some point, the tax authorities could say, if you're operating from Lisbon, they could say you've created a permanent establishment in Lisbon. We will proportion the income that you've generated in Lisbon to the permanent establishment in Lisbon. Normally it doesn't happen. But yeah, it's the clear cut cases are where, for example, you buy real estate in Madeira and put it in a campaign. That's clear cut.
30:56
Very clear cut that if you buy real estate in Lisbon, even if you have a Madeira company, will pay mainland rates. If you have a company with employees here and there, that's where it becomes, you know, some leeway on arguing, you know, where was the income actually generated? And there's the question of questions of productivity, but a lot of people are incorporating companies in Madeira.
31:25
We haven't actually included in this slide the Madera IBC company, International Business Center company. There is another type of Madera company that has 5 % corporation tax rate. I think it's not really worth the discussion so much because if you have 5 % in Madera, you will pay guilty tax in the US and end up in the same place. So for Americans, it doesn't really work.
31:53
Yeah, so let's not muddy the waters. Just make a note if you're that person that wants to know about Medeta that you should probably circle back and discuss this one-on-one, So this is the big one actually, and I mean really big. So NHR gone, right? And Iffisi is here. I think Zev, you should go back to their website and look at the long live Iffisi webinar that they did a few days back.
32:21
So basically, NHR, it's dead. And now we have a feces in existence. And so I'm going to totally again, just defer to Zev on this. You guys are doing this full time right now, right? Helping people figure out a feces and whether they qualify. Yeah. So, mean, the feces is not better for Americans generally compared to NHR because for non-Americans, the feces has a big...
32:49
plus, which is the capital gains foreign capital gains exemption. Americans don't pay tax on capital gains for the reasons I've explained before. The big the big losers of efficiency are people on pension income or retirement income. You know, it's not just pension. It's retirement income. Generally, it's classified as pension. So that's not not subject to efficiency. Otherwise, other than these two things, the benefits are almost identical. So it's 20 percent rate on income from
33:19
sourced in Portugal from work sourced in Portugal, so employment and self-employment, full exemption on foreign source income except for pension. So almost the same. The big difference is in the qualification. So NHR was automatic qualification, five years out of Portugal, ticket box, you have NHR for 10 years, no one's going to ask you any questions. If you say you have to qualify. And what Portugal realized is that, well, first, it wants working people more than it wants people on pension.
33:48
for obvious reasons. And two, these people have to be contributing in some way to some local vehicle. But the socialist government that put this program in place probably had much narrower plans on how to use this. And then the government changed and the center minority government is there now try to expand it as much as possible. And they've created the
34:16
seven different routes to EFACI. We've identified the three most relevant ones for foreigners. The easiest one or the easiest one to qualify to is the startup route, which applies to people who either work in a certified startup and certifying startups is a whole separate discussion, not very hard, but something that needs to be done. So either working in a certified startup as employees or as board members.
34:45
And we've taken a folk, mean, at Fresh we're very focused on the board members route because we feel that there lots of people that are coming to Portugal with really exciting backgrounds that could have really made a huge contribution to local startups. up until now had no, both hadn't had an incentive to do that, but also didn't really know how to find those local startups and make a contribution. And now that
35:14
the tax benefits are dependent on this. The entire industry is interested in saying, how can we find a win-win and help local startups whilst helping the experts and getting them involved? And I'm personally very excited about this both because I'm startup. Well, it's amazing, right? Because one of the things with Portugal, if you Google any facts about its economy, it's been way too dependent on tourism, right?
35:45
and hospitality in general. And it lacks the sort of diversified ecosystem and its fiscal and its economy that it would otherwise have. So this is a great channel for a lot of folks to actually come in and find a useful, productive way to contribute to the Portuguese economy, upgrade the labor pool, and also be incentivized. Pretty cool. Yeah, we're facilitating that.
36:14
So we have relatively short term plans to put together a of a YC style accelerator that will find the best companies and help people create win-wins, bringing their relevant experience and also cash. And the companies will expect some investment from people, but that's going to be a fraction of the value of the VC system.
36:43
Then some people would want to set up their own company and start an activity in Portugal and that can be a startup as well. Or it can be an export company that is another route. The export company route can be service exports. So if you're working as a software developer or a marketeer, then you're exporting services. That is another route for you. And then there is yet another route.
37:12
the general route, it's supposed to be broader, but it's actually administered by an entity called Yapme, which is not a very, hasn't been a very useful entity until now. So we're not planning to use that as much, the government's making efforts to improve Yapme as well. that can be another exciting.
37:35
So their government is going through about as much change as ours is, although it sounds like the opposite direction. They're creating and funding new government entities right now. Anyways, I kid. So I'm including these slides so that you could understand some of the technical aspects to qualifying for and applying to the FEC regime. Please email us if you'd like to get the slide set, as I do feel that there's a lot of important material that we're not gonna go deep into.
38:03
So I'm gonna just talk quickly about what we do at Green Ocean, we help people plan stuff. So at the risk of sounding simplistic about this, what kind of trip have you ever taken that you didn't benefit from a little bit of planning? And so these are just a few slides from some of our financial plans that we write for folks. Of course, understanding the relative rate of change of your tax rate is a big deal.
38:32
because tax is one of your biggest expenses as you head into retirement. And so looking at sort of projected income tax returns from 2025, 2026, once you get past NHR, you're kind of understanding what your tax returns have in store for you in the future is all of what financial planning is about. So this was a rather simple equation here. I was doing a Roth conversion with somebody.
39:01
And I see there's a question in the lobby here about Roth conversions. Roths are respected in a way in Portugal, and we will get into that in the question and answer. But it all comes back to planning, because using the tax treaties, understanding how Portugal works, that is important. But it can be a bit of a one-stop shop kind of question, whereas financial planning is the larger question of thinking about how this sequence of
39:29
of tax returns is going to play out over years. And so you can make big changes to that if you effectively control your investments and you effectively plan for the way that you distribute income from certain tax advantaged vehicles like your TSPs, 403Bs, and of course your big 401k. And so the tax treaty is a big deal, but planning your sort of your tax strategy over time involves looking at your income.
39:58
as well. We talked about the foreign earned income exclusion. I mean, you really just to effectively use the FEIE, you just have to understand that this is really for your tax preparer if you're using a tax preparer, but you have to understand how your income streams that you're taking are being taxed. Are they being taxed by active activity in Portugal or is it your US based income, which is usually the case? And that's where you're going to use the foreign
40:27
Actually, no, that's where you're going to use the foreign tax credit. Sorry, the foreign earned income exclusion is on income that you're earning while you're in Portugal. And it's useful up to about $130,000 in 2025. And then there's the foreign tax credit. The foreign tax credit can sometimes be larger than the earned income exclusion.
40:51
And so we're here to help you if you want to understand the difference as it applies in real time. I'm not going to go deeper into it today because the Roth conversion, this is a bigger deal actually. And so as Zev has pointed out, you can seek relief from the courts or you can get prepared with your U.S. income streams. And so this is actually one of the things that I've been hitting on the most in the last few years is effectively doing Roth conversions. And so this is basically just taking your
41:21
your tax advantaged accounts and taking the taxes out now, prepaying the taxes now while you're under NHR or before you've moved to Portugal or in some cases just sort of like taking little chunks of your IRA out now instead of doing it later. And so why would you do that? Well, you would do that because as with this individual over here, your tax rates are going to go up over time. If you leave the tax advantaged money to the side,
41:51
let it grow and then take it out when you're forced to vis-a-vis your required minimum distributions. So that is something that's interesting. It is respected in Portugal to the extent of your original Roth contributions. There was a question I saw in the lobby here. Should I just disperse my Roth IRAs? Well, for sure not if you've understood what I just explained because Portugal will in fact respect the fact that you've already paid taxes
42:20
on oftentimes most of that Roth account. You just, again, you have to be really intentional when you file your tax returns because the sort of standard just press, you know, go on your Medellin model three, it might actually treat your Roth IRA distributions as a standard pension. So you have to be really smart about how you prepare your taxes. It's a big deal.
42:51
Taxation of use at U.S. Social Security and pensions. Well, as I think, again, we've had a question on this, you are going to be taxed on your U.S. Social Security, yes. Whether you have NHR or not is going to affect how much you're going to be taxed. And exactly how does that work? If you have NHR, that's just pension income, right? And so you're going to be taxed at the 10 % rate.
43:18
with whatever you paid in the US, if you have paid in the US being deductible from that. social security strangely is considered sourced in the US, whilst all other private pension is considered sourced in Portugal or resourced to Portugal. So it only impacts where you take the deduction. But for social security, you pay first in the US. And what you paid in the US is deductible in Portugal, and it's 10 % if you're under NHR, but progressive rates if you're not.
43:48
So your tax at the source, so the US is going to withhold a certain amount from your social security payment, maybe 10%. And so a $30,000 pension social security payment is going to be taxed $3,000 in the US. It's deductible in Portugal, is that right? It's deductible in Portugal, yeah. OK. And then there's no additional taxation on the $27,000 that you take after that?
44:18
What do you mean? Well, so you get $27,000. The US has withheld 10%. But you're getting $27,000. So your income is $30,000. you pay, the tax paid at source would be $3,000. And in this case, if you're under NHR, there's no more tax to pay in Portugal because the Portuguese tax would have been $3,000 as well. And you've already paid it in the US, so the outcome is zero. If you're under progressive rates in Portugal, would be that whatever the progressive rates produce,
44:48
minus the 3000 you already paid in the US and it's applied to the whole 30,000. Right. So you are taxed on the full amount if you're not covered by NHR, in other words. Yes. Yeah. Okay. That I think is what most of us really, really want to know. Now there was a question, as I said, I was going to answer most after in Q &A, but this is Germain here, is someone named Carolyn asks, US government pensions aren't taxed the same, right? And so
45:16
So how about that? If you have like a federal job, you have a pension on the federal job, what I've understood, and I've talked with Pedro about this, hopefully we don't get him into trouble tonight, that is not subject to taxation in Portugal. Yeah, that's I should have mentioned this. So government pension, which includes states, some schools, army, is not taxed in Portugal unless you have a Portuguese passport.
45:45
the only implication of applying for citizenship is this one. Yeah, that's a big deal guys. So if you become a citizen, then you are going to be subject to taxation on that, right? And so that's a huge deal.
46:06
Key tax deadlines. This is an easy one, guys. So if you're in Portugal, the tax filing period is from April 1st to June 30th. Easy peasy. In the US, April 15th is the standard deadline, but expats, if you're living abroad, you actually have an extension to June 16th. And then you can seek to get an extension as well, which...
46:34
Many times I have had US tax preparers tell me, definitely file for the extension because of course you have until October the 15th to finish your filing, although you should pay your calculated taxes first, but they also made this funny point which is relevant this year. They said, you know, if you file for an extension, the labor pool that's available to do an audit on you has been effectively thinned out. So your chance of getting audited is super low.
47:02
I just found that amusing and it's relevant this year because there's probably even less folks at the IRS that are going to be capable of performing your audit. Anything you want to say about Portuguese versus US? Zev, which one should we do first, by the Just one, again, just one point. Most of our clients file extensions, but the criteria is normally if you have any tax to pay in Portugal, you would normally take credit in the US.
47:32
And so, you know, I gave the opposite example with social security, but in most cases, you pay in Portugal first and you deduct in the US because that's the right order of sourcing. So it makes sense to file an extension in the US. Also, filing extension in Portugal is complicated. It can be done, but it's complicated. normally we file for our clients, we request extension, finish the Portuguese taxes.
48:01
We have a very, very stressed period between April 1 and April 15 where we need to figure out estimated US taxes. But yeah, that's how it normally works. Unless you don't have any tax to pay in and then it doesn't matter. So then you usually file your Portuguese taxes first, in other words. Yeah. That's what I heard. Yeah. OK. That's what I thought. F bar, this is an easy one. Do you have more than $10,000 in any accounts in Portugal during the year?
48:30
You got to file your FBAR and it's very easy to do. So don't mess this one up. It's very easy. For any combination of accounts, Yeah. Any combination of accounts. Yeah. That is pretty wild. I mean, it's very easy to do, of course. US taxpayers also have to do FATCA if they have more than $50,000 in Portugal. FATCA is, yes, it's filed
49:00
when you're doing your tax returns. IRS form 8938. That one's gonna be on the test later. And it can actually result in severe penalties. My understanding is, your FATCA penalties could, like there was a case that I read when I was earning my global financial planning certification where a fellow was taxed like $2 million because he had back taxes. He, no, this was just related to FATCA.
49:29
It had nothing to do with the back taxes. It was completely to do with how much income he had been receiving in Europe and the penalties were gross. And so that's very rare for you to be penalized on this, but you can be penalized by quite a lot here. Estimated tax payments. I think this one's pretty obvious, but many of us are subject to it.
49:58
large income taxes, more than $1,000, so guess even middling amounts, then you are going to be subject to estimated tax payments every quarter. Freelancers, self-employed individuals, and yes, expats. So all of us who receiving income stream, even passive income streams, instead of filing in April 15th and having to pay all of your taxes at that time, once it's understood that you're going to have an ongoing tax liability,
50:27
the US tax authorities are going to say, you have to pay a fourth of that every three months. Let's just stay caught up. So it's kind of like pretending that you are self-employed, even if you're not. Now, I don't know what this one is actually, Zev. You helped me with this. Can you help us understand Portugal's tax withholding system?
50:54
I don't remember this slide. So, I mean, obviously if you're paid a salary, there's a withholding like the same way that it works in the US. But if you're self-employed, do you have to do that? If you're self-employed, so interestingly, if you're self-employed and your clients are in Portugal, you have to have withholding. The rate is 25 % now. But if your clients are overseas, you don't have to withhold. Okay.
51:22
So you can receive the full amount if you don't have to withhold. But obviously you'll pay everything at the end of the year. After the first year, you'll have estimated taxes in Portugal as well. Same kind of system. Even if your clients are overseas. Let's see, penalties. I think this slide is pretty self-evident. Of course, you can avoid penalties by following all of the rules.
51:51
that we have so far considered. IMI tax implications. This one's just property taxes. They're pretty low here, right? I thought that they would be like 1%, but they're not. They're pretty low here. It's the taxable. So these amounts come from the taxable value of the properties, not the actual value of the properties. So they're even lower than what it seems.
52:18
Yeah, the ongoing payments are not particularly high. saying that is not a real estate expert. Okay, well, I feel the same. I've always paid my property taxes when they come in the US. There's not much you could say other than the fact that they're less here in Portugal. And common pitfalls. I'm going to run through these because we've got so many great questions.
52:48
Zev, I have one question over here in the Q &A that says, Zev still work at Fresh? I just want to get that out of the way. You do in fact work at Fresh. Yeah, I mean, it's my firm. So yeah, I still work there. Thanks. So the tax problems that you could run into. We all know that missing the tax filing deadline is going to hurt in the US.
53:13
But is it true, as of, that missing the tax deadline in Portugal is going to result in a fine that starts at 200 and goes up to 2,500? Not really. Starts at like 20 euros. It's not that bad. It depends on how long you miss it for. It's discretionary, so the authorities can assess the tax. But if you're a repeat offender, it'll be higher.
53:42
Yeah, nobody's not such a big deal. That is so funny. It reminds me of the sort of moral judgment that's made every time that you have a penalty. The person that has to like, you know, really stick it to you will look at you and wag their finger. I'm going to hit you with the full amount today because you deserve it. You know, omitting accounts, this is a tricky one. Not reporting foreign income correctly. I mean, how do you get caught on this? Probably an audit.
54:10
would be my understanding. Both of the countries. Some people ask them questions in ruling requests. I think it's called the ruling letter in the US. But there's been a fascinating case recently. Sorry, I know there are lots of good questions, but it's such a good case. have to tell about it. Someone asked whether they wanted to confirm the dividends from a Dubai company are exempt under the NHR. And they are.
54:40
because Dubai has the right to tax it under the double taxation treaty, even though they're a blacklisted country. So someone wrote a request for ruling to the authorities saying, I want to set up a Dubai structure, but we'll only do that if it's exempt from tax. So I just want to confirm if it's exempt. And the tax authority said, yes, it's exempt, but not for you, because you've just told us that the only reason that you want to set this up.
55:04
is to avoid payment of tax. I was thinking of the lawyer who wrote or requested that ruling and thinking, oh my God. yeah, some people are just really smart and yeah, some get caught up in audits. Refiling can lead to audits. So there's lots of more audits on refilings. Sometimes it's mistakes in the reporting system. So the Modelo Thresh doesn't work well.
55:33
For example, no way to correct your report employment income overseas. Just no way to do that. You have to choose the wrong way to report it because there's no right way. If your entity is not registered in Portugal, which is obviously not your fault. So that leads to examination. So there are different things. We're going to an hour, so I'm going to get to question and answer pretty quick. Assuming US retirement accounts are tax free in Portugal.
56:02
We've already talked about this. There's a lot to understand with that, but we've talked about it and failing to apply for tax benefits and restructure income to enjoy them. I want to move on really fast because I promised Ryan that we would give him a chance to talk about his favorite thing, which I love him for, which is the markets. I'm actually, I'm super on board. We got a lot of great questions on this and it's focused on tax. I don't want to distract.
56:30
We could just skip to one chart, go up one, two. But the market is not in a recession yet. No. Just to put a fine point on it, we look at this stuff, but we're talking about taxes. And we don't think of recessions likely yet. I have a tax-related slide. If you could just advance one more, one more. Yep, this is what you should do. And here we go. So in years following a strong year on the S &P, keeping in mind that
56:59
2023 was up 23%, 2024 was up 25%. We expect to have a little bit of a weak tax window is what they're calling it. I would say that there's been a lot of reasons for volatility recently, but we would expect that to continue probably until at least the end of April into May. And that's because there's a lot of people that are gonna owe some tax bills and will probably sell some of their appreciated investments to do just that. And that's.
57:26
All I would say, this is a great tax topic. So let's not deviate into markets too far. But I mean, it's worth pointing out that we in the arcane business of studying squiggly lines, we'll buy stock if we think that there's not a recession coming. Otherwise, bonds do look great right now. The Fed did release some guidance. They are still going to drop rates. If we enter a recession, they'll drop rates more. Therefore, if you buy bonds now at much higher
57:54
prevailing rates, that's usually to the good. So that's what you see us doing, cautious optimism as always. Yeah. And that's going to kick us into Q &A. So Zav, format. So I'm going to just read some of the questions so that we can move through them. And we'll try to really move through them quick. But some folks have been patient, so I'm going to start them off right from the start. Someone named Lisa. Hello, Lisa.
58:24
I hope Berkeley is treating you well. She had a question about inheritances through a trust in the US and she's asked if there's advantages or disadvantages to using a US trust. Do you speak to that frequently? I know you have some colleagues who do. Can you answer that for well, mean, have, Pedro's the big expert on this in my team, but I can give the kind of the general.
58:49
The general rule is that if the direct inheritance, like so, you know, from a parent or a grandparent is not taxable in Portugal. But if there is a trust in the middle, it probably is. And the reason is that Portugal doesn't recognize a trust. So how to deal with a particular trust in between is discretionary. And then it depends whether it's a revocable trust or an irrevocable trust and so on. But usually because trust are not a thing in Portugal, they are
59:18
a common law concept, so American, British, Australian, they're not a civil law concept, then it confuses Portugal. And it could create this barrier that prevents the inheritance from being non-taxable in Portugal. Interesting. So that brings us to the next question, which is what are the tax rates on inheritance in Portugal? It's zero other than the stamp tax for transfer of assets, right?
59:45
Zero unless it's not direct and then it's tax and it's 10 % but it's for inheritance coming into Portugal, right? So if the assets stay overseas, there is no tax. Okay. So another question on NHR. Under NHR status, US citizen still needs to enter the capital gains on securities when filing in Portugal though, even if they're well. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. This person, Pascal asks,
01:00:15
they're gonna have to enter those. And then they said, well, they're not gonna be taxed as an assumption they asked that, but they're gonna be taxed unless you take a contrary position and you have to sue for that under the saving clause, right? No, you don't have to sue. You just need to state your citizenship and request the exemption in the right places. If you will request the exemption in the right places, right now they're applying the exemption correctly. You don't need to go to court anymore. Got it. Okay, we got an easy one.
01:00:45
Do I have a tax liability if you sell your home in the US after you move to Portugal? Not under NHR. Yes, if you don't have NHR. There you go. if you have NHR? Or if easy. If easy is exempt as well. All right. Do you need to report unrealized capital gain on your Portuguese taxes or just realized? Only realized capital gain. Yeah.
01:01:09
Would a self-employed person qualify for NHR 2.0 is a question from Dave, Dave Bonnet. I don't think naturally you would, but you can check in with you guys to see if that activity qualifies. I gave these three categories. So self-employment in itself is not going to qualify you, but you could qualify under any of the other things and that could exempt your foreign source self-employed income and give you 20 % on the local resource. So it's enough.
01:01:38
You just need to qualify, right? I mean, you don't need all of your activity to be done within the qualification criteria. You can have a startup position, a startup board position, and that will exempt all of your foreign income or an employment role with a thousand euro salary and that's still fine. There you go. So Dave, if you guys haven't checked in with them yet, like I said last week, definitely check in with their team. They're pretty quick to the point.
01:02:08
An anonymous attendee asked, if ZEF just said that Americans are exempt on capital gains taxes due to previously explained reasons, so NHR isn't required for Americans to be exempt? No, no, is. is. is. NHR or EFCE are definitely required. The exemption is unique for Americans under NHR. And non-Americans don't have it, but you still need the status. Yeah.
01:02:35
That's a great question. Well, it's not a great question, but it's definitely if you weren't listening and somebody else asked for an explanation of NHR, definitely Google that one. But real quick and dirty, NHR is a way. It was a regime and now a fece that will reduce the tax rates on most of your income streams from the United States.
01:02:58
Another anonymous attendee asks, what about inheritance taxes? If you die in Portugal and you lived here for less than 183 years and then year you died, then assets become taxable to the state. Yes. if you die in Portugal and you don't have the Portuguese will that opts out of Portuguese legislation, then Portuguese legislation will apply and you don't want that because Portuguese legislation doesn't respect
01:03:25
who you choose to give your assets to. It only partially respects that. And worse, someone is going to show up in a Portuguese court and dispute your inheritance. You can expect 10 years of arguing. This is partially why you see so many abandoned buildings all over Portugal. But there is a simple solution, which is an opt-out will. So basically, will saying, whatever my American will says, this is what I want. And under European laws,
01:03:55
people in Portugal can do that. So if they have a different nationality, they can apply the law of the other nationality and they Yeah, love that. Get an opt out, Will. I love simple stuff. That one sounds easy. We do that, the way. I know. I was trying to, again, I grew up in the United States in the 80s and I hate infomercials, but that is what you should do. Go see these guys.
01:04:21
It's also someone says, oh, this is like a multiple choice exam here. Okay, ready Zev? This person says, there were seven types of income and you only listed one dividends, two interests, three royalties, four capital gains. I there are seven different streams of qualification for a VC. That's why I use the number seven.
01:04:45
I mean, yeah, I don't think everything is included here, but yeah, I was talking about something else. Okay. I love playing game show host. Willie asks, I will realize income from US government pensions that is not taxed in Portugal under the US-Portugal tax treaty. I'm also going to have rental property. So the question is, in Portugal, will the rental income be counted in tax separately, or is it going to be added to my non-tax pension income with the tax rate applied based on the total income?
01:05:14
it will not be added because government pension is completely outside the scope of tax in Portugal. There are other streams of income. For example, if you were to sell US property and had exempt capital gains under NHR, that is counted, but government pension is not. That's a great question. Thank you, Willy. That's a super good question. I would have missed that one. And now we know. Paps asks, to qualify for a VC,
01:05:40
Is it necessary to have been absent from Portugal for five years the way that you did for NHR? And if I'm on NHR now, can I qualify for a FEC and after NHR, can I reboot my 10 years? Yeah, so it is necessary to be out of Portugal for five years and if FEC explicitly exempts people who benefited from NHR. no, can't. Good question. I assumed that that was not true, but then that's a great question,
01:06:09
Manel asks, regard to timing, what happens if you don't file in the US until October, but the Portuguese taxes are due in June? Do you have to amend the Portuguese tax return? Presumably Manel means, we'll see, but Manel, you're not filing until October, but you're gonna have to pay your tax, implied estimated taxes in April.
01:06:35
So you're not going to end up amending the Portuguese returns because if you've done things correctly with that extension, then you're going to be able to tell Portugal what you've paid, right? Right. mean, yeah. That's why the taxes need to be synced. And it's a big challenge. I don't think people fully realize just how difficult it is to get it fully synced. Yeah. I mean, once you get into a good practice, it's not rocket science, but you do have to...
01:07:02
take it seriously and be intentional about it. do amend returns sometimes, but the hope is not to. Richard asks, I'm an expat. Do I need to file an extension if I'm filing before the June 16th deadline, but after April 15th?
01:07:19
So this is a US question, think, and yes. Oh, before. No, you don't need to file No, you don't. Oh, OK, because it gets the automatic. Yeah. And then, yeah, you do need to file an extension. June 15, it should be. Right, June 15. Yeah, I mean, if you want to get to October 15, then for sure you're going to need to do that. Cindy asks, what documentation do you need to prove to Portugal?
01:07:47
the amount of taxes are withheld from your social security in the US. And she has a follow up at the bottom too. Yeah, don't need any documentation unless you're requested. Oh, that's a good question, Cindy. And the first time I got a beer one time at Cortin Gleis with Zev and he joked, and this is a joke, said, you know, you basically just have to tell them, you know, what you did. I love that. We don't file any documents. We don't file any documents. We don't need to see any documents.
01:08:18
Yeah, unless you get audited, Unless you get audited, then you're asked for the documents. Normally you're asked for other stuff. And interestingly, the rule in Portugal is different. The onus is on the authority to prove that you're wrong. So it's actually very, very difficult for the authorities to... And we've had arbitration cases that we won partially because they don't like to order the file from the US.
01:08:45
They would only do that in very big cases. So you're assumed to tell the truth, which is nice. That is nice. And that is a totally different temperament than we assume that the IRS has. The IRS famously took down Jimmy Hoffa, which is a gangster. that was because they went in guns blazing because they are super tough. They're like a military force in the United States. The Portuguese are not.
01:09:10
Most of the Portuguese accountants and tax lawyers think that finances are very tough, but it's just because they don't know how the other countries operate. I prefer it that way. Also, we have CAD in Portugal, which is a fantastic tribunal. It's an arbitration tribunal. It's the only court in Portugal that really works.
01:09:35
If you have an issue with the Portuguese tax authorities, you can take them to that tribunal. You will have a decision within six months. The judges and arbitrators actually know their stuff. it's super. you have a dispute, a few thousand euros take you through all the thing. And it's really good. So you can very reasonably dispute the tax assessment in Portugal if you need to.
01:10:03
Yeah, that is not how we feel about it. I don't know about you guys, but I don't feel like disputing the IRS generally leads to a positive outcome for you in the United States. Okay, we got one more question. too. Somebody says for the D7, if I'm using rental income, will I pay taxes on gross rent? Yeah, I think so. Right? if you're not under NHRA, it's the immigration. Immigration and taxes have nothing to do with each other.
01:10:33
And then the last question, Richard, for a second question. If I have a bank account that was mostly under 10K euros in 2024, but for two months in 2024, he had 100 grand in it. Does he have to do the F bar and the F cat? Yeah, I think so. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You have to. Even if it's Monday. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like doing like a jump out of an airplane. Like once you hit that level, the light turns on. You got to do it. There's no turning back.
01:11:03
Done. That was actually a lot of fun, guys. We should do that again. Everyone is still here. Yeah. You guys don't have to stay here. Plus, I'm going to bombard you with the video tomorrow. So don't worry. If you missed the first part, you can always come back and review the entire session. I don't think we have much more to talk about. You want to wrap it up, Zev? Do you have any thoughts before we go? Just first of all, thank you very much for inviting me. Super interesting questions.
01:11:33
Very engaged, very engaged group. You know, we love working with your clients. great. yeah, I there is a rise now in people wanting to come to Portugal, obviously not politically motivated at all. It's all just because they finally heard how great Portugal is. yeah, we love Americans here. Healthy food, Yeah. come. Boa Vida. It is true, though.
01:11:58
Like the first few years I was here searching for a tax expert that knew both sides of the Atlantic was like finding a unicorn. And so I know you find it shocking that I love your staff so much, but I do. Everybody from Raquel to Pedro on down, some super like, Raquel told me the other day that she's proudly a, what did she say? She said a work addict or? Yeah, something like that. Yeah, a workaholic. And I'm like,
01:12:28
I love that, at the same time, I don't. Because I moved away from the United States to avoid workaholism. So I'm like, great, great, great. I don't know what to do with it. Anyways. And it's mutual. mean, yeah, you're doing a great job for these people. I was pitching you to a fund here that invests in securities. And I was telling them, know, John and Ryan can put together a portfolio of securities.
01:12:58
uh... for for your final night and dismissive the next thing is that happens that they talked to a client that doesn't know your you're too conservative because you don't have enough securities it's all bonds and i thought i mean i told you i told you yes yes and uh... ryan has been so quiet here but he's not a quiet guy uh... but he is like he is a real stock jockey and we put together really strong uh... equity portfolios uh... the u.s. might be in a weird minute here i know we are uh... but
01:13:26
We have one of the, we have the most diverse and successful economies in the world in so many ways. So that's my And you know, I will leave, I just wanted to say my last piece, just all this talking about taxes, you know, I like to joke sometimes with people, we can get really twisted up about paying taxes, but what's the one thing that's worse than paying taxes? Not paying any taxes because you didn't have any gains. So, you know, I'll leave you with that thought. I really appreciate the time today. What a great.
01:13:56
session guys thanks again that was fun alright guys that's a wrap take care don't think very well we'll see you around alright bye bye
